6.3

Hi all,

I'm planning on removing the radiator next weekend to gain access to some coolant-hoses and to clean the front of the engine.

Can anyone give some usefull tips on how to do the job correctly?

thanx!

Gunter

w109 6.3 #1452 '69
s124 300 TDT '90
Skoda Superb '09

Gunter,
There is nothing special that I know of. Before you do the job, order a replacement mounting kit, 108 586 00 50, so you have it ready for reinstallation. It consists of the 2 rubber rings and the rubber mounts on either side of the unit. There is a drain cock at the bottom for the water. You will need to release the radiator shroud by finding and releasing the 4 bolts that hold it to the radiator. There are 6 hoses to consider, 2 water, 2 oil and 2 for the automatic transmission cooler lines. You have to release all 6 and have some system for plugging the oil lines. Generally, just elevating the ATF lines and tying them up as far as they will reach to an adjacent structure stops them leaking too much, but you need to expect spillage and have a plastic or metal large dish or trough. When the 4 lines and the two radiator hoses are disconnected, the radiator lifts upwards after you have released the two rubber rings. I have found old water hoses to be difficult to move and old radiators very difficult to move. Having a second person to help both with keeping the radiator square at both ends and with the lift is helpful. That is all I can think of at the moment, I'm sure others will have things to add to or to correct what I have said.
Art

Before you pull the radiator up, there are two bolts that hold the oil radiator to the water radiator. Loose them up to release pressure against the frame so that if slides more easily when pulling.

Juan

Art, Juan, thanx for the input.

Art, I've found following partn° on epc-net; A108 500 00 12 (repair-kit radiator mounting)

can you confirm that that is the correct (current) number?

thanx!

Gunter

w109 6.3 #1452 '69
s124 300 TDT '90
Skoda Superb '09

This is the time to replace the water hoses connecting the water pipes between the heads and the big pipe and the back of the thermostat housing. It would also be good to remove the water pump from its manifold to inspect the manifold for corrosion. I'll see if I can get a good picture of the typical corrosion in the manifold.

If you are feeling really adventurous, this would also be the time to replace the front crankshaft seal.

You will have to remove at least one of the big pipes at the cylinder heads in order to get the hose between them out. Note that it is very common for these hex. socket screws to be very tight in the heads, so clean out the sockets completely so that the hex. bit will fit all the way down into the recesses so as to not strip them. The large water pipes between the heads are frequently in poor condition because of corrosion, so it is best to remove both of them so that you can inspect them.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org

Gunter,
I went down and had a look at a repair kit in my garage and can confirm that the number you have is the correct current number. I should pencil it into my Parts Manual.
Art

The pipes that Chris refers to are seen in the middle of this picture below the junction between the left and right inlet manifolds. Not only are the hoses often neglected because they are difficult to get to (I presume they are among the ones you intend to replace), but the pipes are severely corroded. Two of the hex socket bolts that Chris refers to are seen in profile just above the timing chain above the distributor. There are another two for the larger pipe on the right that are just as difficult. I'd suggest you soak them with your favourite antiseize for a day or two before you do exactly what Chris suggested about removing them. Both the left and right pipes were available new fairly recently, so if yours are bad, I suggest you replace them as I have obviously done in #765 as well as replacing the hoses. The thermostat is off in this view (it's sitting on the right front guard/fender above the windscreen washer reservoir). Replace it as well if it is corroded. Unfortunately, the long narrow pipe that runs from the water pump back to the rear of the motor to the heater is not available new for the 6.3 after #500.








Art

The prices for those parts will make your eyes water, I recently priced the shorter one on the front of the left head, $1655.00 US [:0]

300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

Something crazy has been done to those prices. They were not even a quarter of that price 3 years ago as best I recall. The picture I posted lacks detail at less than 80Kb, so I have been fiddling to get a cropped view. Here it is.




Art

quote:

---

The prices for those parts will make your eyes water, I recently priced the shorter one on the front of the left head, $1655.00 US [:0]

---

Something is wrong with that. I bought that exact same part a couple of months ago for $125 US.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org

Here is Tom's reply to my request 1/21/2011, maybe the part number is wrong?

2. Heater return line A1005000272 (I think this is NLA but
thought I’d ask) Can't get it.
3. Coolant elbow for front of left hand head (A1002000018?)
good number $1655.00
4. Coolant elbow for back of right hand head 100-200-13-52
$505.00
5. Fuel supply line to injection pump from front damper, the
steel line 100-070-08-32 not available
6. Copper plated lock nuts for exhaust and inlet manifolds, 32
pieces 000-990-32-50 $2.40 ea
7. Suspension Compressor oil supply line 005-997-25-82 $157.00
8. Air Filter 000-094-58-04 $47.00
9. Oil Filter 000-180-04-09 $39.50 !!!!


300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

Ant,
That is not the right part number. Should be 100 200 09 52. I don't know what 100 200 00 18 is because there is nothing like it in my Parts Manuals even though Tom said it is a good number. He also confirmed to you that the heater line for the 6.3 is not available, even though the similar lines in 2 or 3 versions for the 600 are.
Art

P.S. Maybe he went on your description rather than the number and hit the 5 key twice when he was typing - I do things like that[:I].

Art,
According to the EPC on the MB Clubs site 100 200 0018 replaced 100 200 09 52 and shows the elbow in question in the part image (#177)






I'll email Tom and ask the question as I'd like to replace this part while the heads are still off #2723

300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

There you go, I'm out of date[:o)]. Must be the second explanation.
Art

Notice the part underneath it, the elbow for the back of the right head, $505.00, two typos?
Again I'll ask the question as Chris said he purchased the part for $125 [?]

300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

quote:

---

4. Coolant elbow for back of right hand head 100-200-13-52
$505.00

---

I hope that is wrong as well. I bought the 600 version of the pipe a couple of months ago for $52. The 6.3 line is identical except that the line points sideways rather than downward.


Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org

I still had the left head pipe part in the shop so I thought I should check its part number. It is indeed the 100-200-00-18 item. A check with Tom is in order.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org

In the mean time I checked with my local dealer and 100 200 00 18 is $338.37 while 100 200 13 52 returned a price of $1467 Aussie dollars, something is amiss, I have emailed Tom

300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

Not only does it make your eyes water but also it will make your hair stand up - that's if you've got any left after these various parts exercises. Somewhere, sometime, somehow along the line it is just so easy to get, shall we say, ripped off. I know the problem is with the parent Company in Germany-it's just money, money, money and inctreases not in accordance with the level of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP for the lazy of word individuals) percentages. In Oz country, try $1K. for a front window regulator - and that DOES NOT include the motor - I suspect that could be another $600.00 - it's about two years since I priced one.

Very, very disappointing and just plain bad. Regards Styria[:(!]

"My Gleaming Beauty"

I'll stick my neck out again, but 100 200 13 52 is the angled pipe at the FRONT of the right head, not the small pipe at the BACK. Have a look at the picture I posted of the new one on the previous page. The one at the rear of the 981 right head is 100 010 02 76. The two versions on the 980 motor are 100 010 00 76 and 100 010 01 76 (unless they have changed the part numbers[;)]. That pipe is not shown or listed in the EPC page for Group 20 that Ant posted, but in Group 01 with the heads, hence the part number.
Art

P.S. The CORRECT prices for these pipes are not unreasonable considering that they have been reproduced and are specific to a motor which is over 40 years old and originally produced in quite small numbers, particularly compared to most USA motors. The fact that the original car manufacturer even bothers to have them reproduced after 40 years and supports their remanufacture, storage, inventory and distribution is amazing. There are thousands and thousands of these parts that are still available - I never whinge if I can still get them. As Michael says, some prices seem excessive, but if you look at the logistics involved, overall we do pretty well. Generally, Australian prices are double or more the US prices, so it cannot just be a parent company issue. Whinge enough or buy from alternate sources and you cannot complain if the factory stops providing the support and tells us to whistle.

This is starting to make sense now, and I suspect Art's comment re the additional 5 on the end of the $1655 price is correct or the decimal point has jumped a place. Chris do you have a part number for the elbow at the back of the right head as Art has proven the number Tom quoted on is the more complex part on the inside front of the right head? SEE EDIT

Art I missed your edit providing the part number I asked Chris for so will ask Tom for a price and suspect I will be pleased.

Styria I agree the local prices can be a high, that is why I buy from Tom. I also agree fully with Art regarding availabilty and the Classic Centre's service, for a long time we couldn't buy from Tom then it was opened up by "the company" Maybe their way of supporting the classic car lovers?

300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

Ant,
I was putting a PS on my posting while you were posting. I believe that the part number I have given you will be correct 100 010 02 76. If it has upgraded, Tom will know anyway. He has been away, so he will have a pile of e.mails to go through, so don't hold your breath.[:D]

Any word on the Lode Star?
Art

Gotta love cross posts[:)]

I posted the Lodestar last Friday and have had feedback from VIC members that have received theirs so you should receive yours soon, hope you like it[8D]

300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

Hi all,

well, replacing the pipes is not planned for the moment. Although they could (and probably will be) corroded, I will clean the area's where the rubber hoses go over the pipes, but the initial plan is and was to replace the rubber hoses. There are a few there that I don't trust anymore, and because I'm going to a classic meet on sunday, I also won't have enough time come saturday to do all the work in one go. So I'm going to remove the radiator and replace as much rubber as possible.

Gunter

w109 6.3 #1452 '69
s124 300 TDT '90
Skoda Superb '09

Hi Gunter,
If you are going to a classic meet on Sunday, could I be impertinent enough to suggest that you postpone the radiator removal planned for Saturday (if I under stood you correctly). This could become a can of worms that destroys your Sunday plans.
With every good intention[:)],
Art

Ant, the part number that Art provided for the pipe at the back of the right head on a 6.3 is correct: 100 010 02 76.

Gunter, I second Art's recommendation that you not do this project yet if you need the car on Sunday. The likelyhood that the water pump manifold and various water pipes will be significantly corroded is very high, as is the likelyhood that you will have problems removing the screws for either one of the water pipes between the heads.

I have a couple of other comments on this subject. First, I strongly encourage you to use only Mercedes hose for this project. Original Mercedes hose is so vastly superior to the auto parts store hose that it isn't even funny. Regular hose from an auto parts store should be considered criminal in comparison. Mercedes hose routinely lasts 40 years whereas auto parts store hose might be considered reliable for 3, assuming the engine never runs overly hot.

Second, dependability in the plumbing components on these cars is critical. These are the very parts that cause more M-100 6.3 engine damage than any other parts. It is my opinion that these particular parts should be considered mandatory inspection and repair items on the list of things that should be done on any new acquisition. I have a pile of these pipes that are corroded beyond repair, and Neil (Star Motors) has told me how many he has in a box too. If there is a weak spot in these engines, it is the coolant pipes. In reality, they can't really be considered "weak" considering how long they do last and the conditions most have to exist in, but 40 years is a long time and most all of them that are still original are in very bad shape.

This also means that the anti-freeze used in the system is important. I firmly believe in the benefits of the Mercedes branded anti-corrosion/antifreeze product. Yes, it is more expensive than the traditional green stuff but it is far superior in its anti-corrosion properties, and that is what we need. If somebody just can't bring themselves to step up to the Mercedes product, at least they should religiously change the coolant every two years. Leaving the anti-freeze in the engine too long allows it to become acidic at which point it starts doing more damage than good in the engine.

I have a client's 600 in the shop right now for an engine rebuild, and it became necessary because it severely overheated. Why did it overheat? You guessed it: one of the water pipes had a catastrophic failure resulting in a rapid dump of coolant. The really sad part is that this engine was gone through only six years ago by another man. He elected to try to save the pipes by brazing them rather than fix them properly (I'll see if I can get some pictures of those pipes for posting).

It doesn't really matter how much it might have cost to fix them properly at the time, he has to buy new pipes now plus pay for the engine rebuild. The engine rebuild is going to cost much more than ten times the total of the new prices of the various pipes.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org

Hi all,

this evening, while there was still daylight, I took #1452 for a quick drive and eyed up the various components of the cooling-system. Although one cannot see from the inside how bad corrosion is, what worries me the most is the rubber connecting-hoses. Especially the larger one emanating from the thermostat-housing is seriously bloated. The various ones adjacent on the smaller pipes are also to be replaced.
Now, I'm planning on running it quite gently (what with a girlfriend and two young boys coming along) to Antwerp, so I will take Art's advice and for now postpone the removal of the radiator.
If one of the rubber hoses springs a leak come sunday, you can answer to my girlfriend [}:)]

I'll try to take pictures and maybe shoot a bit of film of the event, and will report back [:)]

Gunter

w109 6.3 #1452 '69
s124 300 TDT '90
Skoda Superb '09

Mystery solved, Art you were right, Tom added an extra 5, the correct price is $165 and Tom is getting me a price on 100 010 02 76

300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

That's good news Anthony. I suppose you are now scheduling some work on the car?

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org

I had taken the heads off to cure a oil leak at the back of the left head and replace valve guides and seals, now to put it all back together[B)]

300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

Hello Gunter,
honestly what worried ME most was what I saw when I had the metal pipes/lines off[xx(]. They -like always- corrode from the inside to the outside....the structure is often fragile when the cars stood for some whiles (like mine).
Only option for me was to make new ones and hot-dip galvanize them afterwards. That should be alright for the next hundred years.
At least the old one could serve as samples!!![:D]

300 SEL 6.3 3478+5327
Oliver

A lot of the initial problem was caused by owners in the past simply using water in the cooling system rather than any sort of anti corrosion measures. [:)] .
Ant,did you have a poke around the block to make sure any debris was cleared out? I am surprised at the amount of stuff inside 40 year old engine blocks when they are opened up.

quote:

---

12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Johnson

This is the time to replace the water hoses connecting the water pipes between the heads and the big pipe and the back of the thermostat housing. It would also be good to remove the water pump from its manifold to inspect the manifold for corrosion. I'll see if I can get a good picture of the typical corrosion in the manifold.

If you are feeling really adventurous, this would also be the time to replace the front crankshaft seal.

You will have to remove at least one of the big pipes at the cylinder heads in order to get the hose between them out. Note that it is very common for these hex. socket screws to be very tight in the heads, so clean out the sockets completely so that the hex. bit will fit all the way down into the recesses so as to not strip them. The large water pipes between the heads are frequently in poor condition because of corrosion, so it is best to remove both of them so that you can inspect them.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org

---

What is the tightening torque for the bolts for the big pipe?

There cars and then there are BABIES!
1969 Euro Model
10901812000931

What is the history with the gold color on the pipes, the ones from factory are not that color as is evident from picture attached.


There cars and then there are BABIES!
1969 Euro Model
10901812000931

Commonly referred to chromate conversion coating. Same inexpensive process used by MB and others to improve corrosion resistance. Most local plating firms offer this process. Results in a shinny yellow/green/gold appearance which dulls somewhat over time.

Palm Beach Gardens, FL
Niederheimbach, Germany
300SEL 6.3
E55K AMG
CLK63 AMG Gone
Ferrari 400GTC4 Gone
ML400CDI BiTurbo
ML350 CDI BT
9146GT

quote:

---

Originally posted by Art Love

Something crazy has been done to those prices. They were not even a quarter of that price 3 years ago as best I recall. The picture I posted lacks detail at less than 80Kb, so I have been fiddling to get a cropped view. Here it is.




Art

---

Hey Art, what is that line, clamped to the fuel line coming from the sender? I do not have this in my car and have not noticed it in the few pictures I have seen.

Also the hose on the left side intake manifold does not have clamps, is it suppose to be that way? The reason being I see them in my car and if they are not required then I will take them off.

There cars and then there are BABIES!
1969 Euro Model
10901812000931

That is the high pressure oil line from the oil filter housing to the MFI. It should be there. The hose clamps on the large diameter air hose should also be there. That photo was taken during rebuilding of that motor and the clamps were still to be applied.
Art

quote:

---

Originally posted by Art Love

That is the high pressure oil line from the oil filter housing to the MFI. It should be there. The hose clamps on the large diameter air hose should also be there. That photo was taken during rebuilding of that motor and the clamps were still to be applied.
Art

---

Thanks Art, I will check for the High Pressure line, since it is not taking the route as shown in your picture, it must be coming from the back.

There cars and then there are BABIES!
1969 Euro Model
10901812000931

"That is the high pressure oil line from the oil filter housing to the MFI. It should be there"

Be aware the M100 FIP has NO oilline .... It has an oilfillcap and a dipstick to checking the level ....

quote:

---

Originally posted by paul-NL

"That is the high pressure oil line from the oil filter housing to the MFI. It should be there"

Be aware the M100 FIP has NO oilline .... It has an oilfillcap and a dipstick to checking the level ....

---

That is what I thought. So what is this high pressure line for or is this a modification?

There cars and then there are BABIES!
1969 Euro Model
10901812000931

I am loath to and very rarely disagree with my friend Paul, but on this occasion, he is incorrect. In the 600, this line is a "branch" from the high pressure oil line to the hydraulic fan clutch and in my #178, it feeds from the inflow line to the fan control thermostat valve to the right side of the body of the MFI where it is attached via a banjo fitting. In both my 6.3's, #765 and #1702, it feeds from the oil filter housing to the right side of the MFI where again it is attached via a banjo fitting. In both 6.3's, it hitches a ride on the fuel line to which it is attached by several of the clamps shown in the photo.

It is a narrow calibre line as shown and has nothing to do with lubrication of the MFI. My understanding is that it pressurizes the injector units against fuel pressure.

Its part number in 600's up to Motor 990 is 100 180 10 27 and from #991 is 100 180 12 27. In the 6.3 its part number is 100 180 13 27, the 180 indicating that it is an oil line and its description being Druckolleitung zur Einspritzpumpe or Oil delivery line to injection pump.

It should be there.
Art

Here are some photos.




shows the small calibre high pressure oil line coming forward from the oil filter housing to join the fuel line on #765.




shows the same line where it is attached by a bracket to the first injector line on the MFI on #765. The photo you have already copied shows it at the front of the motor.




Here is the line attached to the right side of the MFI on #765 via a banjo fitting. Whoops, wrong photo - this is the banjo fitting on the 600. I'll add the photo of the fitting on #765 at the bottom.

Now for Paul, here is the set up on 600 #178. It should be the same on his 600, but his will have the supplementary oil filter in the high pressure oil line to the fan clutch thermostat shut off valve, so the piping from the oil filter to the valve may be slightly different.




This shows the T junction for the small calibre high pressure oil line to the MFI from the high pressure oil line to the fan clutch valve which is to the right.




This shows the line in the 600 with the T junction to the right and the banjo fitting on the MFI on the left. The 600 banjo fitting on the right side of the MFI is shown above - see my correction. Here is the fitting on 6.3 #765.




Art

Art,

there is no OIL-line connected to the FIP for the 6.3 ltr motor, but only a fuelinlet and fuelreturnline

quote:

---

Originally posted by paul-NL

Art,

there is no OIL-line connected to the FIP for the 6.3 ltr motor, but only a fuelinlet and fuelreturnline

---

If my memory serves me right, as per Hanns the gentleman who build these pumps on Long Island ,NY, some people have modified pumps installed in their cars. He did not like it since it causes fuel to enter motor oil if the pump starts leaking. Any who, Art the pump on my 6.3 is exactly as per the image posted by Paul.

There cars and then there are BABIES!
1969 Euro Model
10901812000931

That is a 6 cyl pump, the oil feed is on the other side opposite the bosch tag on a 6.3 8 cyl pump. I've removed and refitted it more times that I care to remember.
Pics to follow.


300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

Inlet and banjo fitting









300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

Here is the oil inlet, centre of frame






300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

Here's a thread on the subject.
http://m-100.co/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4611&SearchTerms=MFIP,oil,line


300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...

This is silly. I've provided photographs of the high pressure oil line to the MFI in both the 600 and the 6.3 motors plus the part numbers and descriptions of this oil line and I am being told that this oil line does not exist or it is an after market modification. This is a one way pressure line that pressurizes the injector elements in the MFI. There is no through flow. The fuel inflow and outflow lines on the MFI are visible in a couple of the photos I posted at the front at the top on the left and to the rear at the top on the left. As Ant correctly pointed out and as I have shown in my photos, the oil inflow port on the MFI is on the right side of the pump part way down below the 6th injector element, on the opposite side of the pump from that shown in the 6 cylinder pump that Paul posted a photo of.





Here is the page from the Service Manual describing removal of the MFI in the 6.3. Note paragraph 4.




Here is the relevant reference highlighted in paragraph 4.




Here is the relevant page in the M100 Parts Manual showing the oil system for the motor.




Here is the part of the page showing the set up in the early 600. Part 97 is the oil pressure line to the fan coupling shut off valve. Part 99 is the oil pressure line from that line via a T junction to the MFI where the banjo fitting and hollow bolt are shown. In the 6.3, the fan has a viscous coupling, totally different from the oil fed fan clutch on the 600 and pipe 99 goes all the way from the oil filter housing. This is not shown in the Parts Manual.




Here is the page with the description of the parts shown in the diagram page.




Here is the description of part 99 clearly stating that it goes to the injection pump. These are the part numbers that I described earlier today.

This is NOT an after market modification. This oil pressure line is in all 6.3's and 600's. As I said, it has nothing to do with the MFI lubrication, totally unlike the 6 cylinder pump that Paul illustrated. As far as I understand it, the oil pressure that it provides acts as a seal against fuel pressure in the injector elements. Sorry to have to repeat myself.
Art

Thanks Anthony and Art,

Learned again something new.

Sorry for my confusion in this matter.