6.3

The never ending story of ther ex Rob Fulton 6.3 .





...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

ahh,disregard the first pic...thats Roys LOVELY (not) TATRA.


Another dodgy cone by the looks of things.


Time for a new trans mount.


...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

Cracked fire wall with crappy welding from in the past.


Note the Crease in the tunnel close to the shifter hole.



...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

The picture at the bottom of this thread shows the crack in the firewall crossmember, just above the RHD hand brake wheel. It extends up into a factory 2cm machine hole on the top of the crossmember and then into a screw hole another couple of cm back toward the firewall at the top. Not entirely clear why it has occurred other than metal fatigue. Note also in this picture that the brake line pipe to the rear of the car and one of the airlines have been crushed flat by some sort of impact.

Ignoring the Tatra, in the pictures I sent Ron, Ist pic shows Justin's fancy engine lift device. 3rd one shows the bent rear brackets from the rear end impact driving the exhaust forward. 4th one shows that the car has had the right front chassis rail grafted from a blue car and even then, the chassis rail has been welded just in front of the subframe mount. When Peter Verburg had the car and measured it up on his repair frame, the right front chassis rail was about an inch shorter than the left. Note as a result the scrubbing of the front tyres from misalignment. The chassis number is hence missing from the right chassis rail.

1st picture in the third series of pics shows the rear of the right front chassis rail. You can see where the hand brake cable comes through the firewall. That should be a round hole. Someone has got stuck into it with a coal chisel, presumeably because the cable got stuck at some time in the past. You can again see that the grafted right front chassis rail was blue. There is a bit of rust under the brake booster, but not too bad. The steering box mounting points are OK. Next one shows the tunnel has taken a belting as has the back corner of the floor at the tunnel in the next one.

In the next series, on the bench you can see that the rear end impact snapped one of the arms off the tail shaft flex disc mounting bracket and the auto mount is toast. The left front air suspension cone is actually worse than the right, you just can't see the rust hole right through it because the airbag is clinging to the cone. The subframe mounts are stuffed as are the front lower A arm buffers.

Nothing impossible, we'll replace the damaged fuel and airlines from my stock, take the front and rear axles off and rebuild them, repair the body work, have the propellor shaft repaired, get the air valves repaired, paint it, new mounts and rubbers, new interior and put it all back together and it will live again.[:D] September is the deadline[:0]. Wish us luck[;)].
Art

Here's something else I just noticed. I am going through the Parts Manual to order parts and started with the engine mounts. In the workshop today, I noticed that the automatic transmission support bracket that Justin had on the bench all cleaned up was different from what I was used to with my 6.3's. The rubber buffers had a 116 part number. I presumed that the later 6.3's may have had a different version. In fact, according to my parts manual, the rear engine support bracket on #5810 is off a late 2.8L or 3.5L car. The rear engine mount on the bench in the pictures I sent Ron and he posted is for a 3.5, not a 6.3. Does anyone know if the later 6.3's used the later 109 016 and 109 056 bracket and rear mount or is my Parts Manual correct?
Art

More progress today on #5810. Justin has removed the steering and front axle. I arrived late after spending the day retrieving parts from the 6.3 donor for #765 and took these pictures.

I really would appreciate (and so would Justin) some feedback on the use on this car of the rear engine mount and support bracket from a 109 016 or 109 056 late series car. Has anyone seen this, done it or know if any 6.3's had this setup? Does anyone know if it upsets the balance of the driveshaft?
Art






Here's the top part of the crack in the firewall crossmember




Front axle and steering off

OMG, that makes mine look like a minor refresh!

It was also very "interesting" to drive at speed ( 120mph[;)]).

...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

I just realised that was indeed the wrong mount. Someone has obviously fitted a 3.5 mount and crossmember to save a few dollars in the past .I am sure that mount will not be sufficient to support the 6.3 and trans unless you install a 6.9 rear rubber mount.
The 6.3'as have a larger finny shaped mount normally.

...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

Things are progressing. Here are some more shots from the ones I took today. and a couple of comparison shots from last week.





This is the shot of the right front chassis rail I took a week ago. Turns out the blue is undercoat and the rail is probably original, certainly was on the car when it crashed and required repairs. The only sign of trouble is the weld line across the lower face in front of the subframe mount.






Here's what it ended up as. Justin is holding the piece of sheet metal that had been tack welded onto the inside of the chassis rail where you see the dark colour. It covered the front of the two retainer nut holes and the rear one was bogged up. There was water between the two layers of steel[V].






Here's the rear of the right floor where the exhaust hit it when it was rear ended.






Here's the repair[^].






This last one is to show an important point. It shows where the right inner guard (wheelhouse) has been repaired and rewelded to the front end of the chassis rail and the replaced front cross member after the front end accident some time in the past. Whoever did the repair failed to appreciate the importance of that finger shaped outpocketing in the wheelhouse sheetmetal and welded the open hole at the bottom of it closed at the chassis rail. This is a very important drain hole. Water otherwise accumulates on the top of the front end of the chassis rail under the air cleaner and will rust the front of the chassis rail out. The same thing applies on the other side. The crappy welding of the front end of the chassis rail to the front crossmember has already been cut out by Justin's panel man. I took more pictures. If anyone is interested, say so and I can post them.
Art

Keep them coming Art.

I bought this car off Ronny, and I doubt he knew how molested this car had been underneath.

Art, Rob says it well; keep them coming. I find your photos of great interest. What are your plans for the rust protection of the under side after all is complete? Exterior paint and how much? On this point I have heard two different theories. 1) that only a paint shot is sprayed while wheels are mounted. 2) the whole thing is exterior color coated. I have seen evidence that #2 is correct.

Dan,
These days, the whole body shell gets dipped in a phosphoric acid solution by the production line "belt" dipping into a "pond" of the stuff as the bodies proceed and robots then paint the car.

Back in the 50's and 60's, they were hand sprayed. I have read and heard discussions between the various "experts" on 190SL's about what was painted, what colour, the what extent. Some of those "experts" are totally pedantic and as likely as not wrong. The general concensis is that the body colour on any individual car was sprayed as far under the wheel wells and onto the underbody as the knee bending of the individual painter allowed. Early morning cars probably got more body colour under the wheel wells and sills than late afternoon cars[;)].

The factory in those days used a bituminous stone guard on the underneath. There was no body colour. I don't know whether you can even buy it anymore and the cars "I" have done, and this one will be the same, have been done with modern two pack epoxy stone guard after appropriate priming. I hope this answers your question. I have to go to work now but will post a few more pictures later. I need to save a couple for the Lode Star.
Art

Dan,the best substitute with factory appearance is pick up truck bed liner,such as rhino linings. The original is made by Wurth but can only be applied by their franchise holders who are few and far between. My 6.3 was painted about 9" under each side with the under coat left natural color in the tunnel etc .As Art says,it depended on the painter at the moment as to how far under they got with the gun.

...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

Here's an interesting detail difference between a late 6.3 and an early one that I was not aware of. I take lots of pictures and each one contains some detail or other that is often interesting for one reason or another.




Here's where the steering column comes through the firewall in #5810. The hole in the firewall isn't very big and there is little sign of the large alloy plate at the bottom of the column.




On the left of this picture is the same area in #1702. There is a large cut out in the firewall which is filled by the large alloy plate.
Art

In fact Justin has used one stage water based Wurth stoneguard, not two pack. Here is the package alongside the antirust gapfiller wax he plans to use.





Here is the outcome.





Art

That's a great "Before and After" saga. I can only imagine the hours put into this project. I respect that greatly.

Thanks for the photos!

Here's another detail difference I have noted between early and late cars after seeing #5810 in detail. On #1702, the two fuel and one air line run along the tunnel to the rear of the rear engine mount support bracket and then do a right angle turn to run out to the sill. There is a protective shield in front of the lines at right angles to the sill. On #5810, the lines run on a 45 degree angle through a cutout in the front chassis rail in front of the rear engine mount bracket to reach the sill and the protective shield is appropriately furhter forward and at 45 degrees to the sill. This modification involved a different shield and a modification of the rear part of the front chassis rail. Looking to the Parts Manual, this change probably occurred at #2020 when the part number of this section of chassis rail changed from 110 610 07 13 to 108 610 01 13.





This isn't the best view of it on #1702 but the better ones are not jpg files so I can't post them. You can at least see the fuel lines running inside the support mounting and then turning outwards at a right angle. What is very apparent on this view is the tilt to the left of the RHD motor and gearbox.





The fuel lines are off but you can clearly see the cutout in the chassis rail and the protective shield that the lines run behind.
Art

#5810 has had a serious smack in the front at some time, worse on the right than the left. The front crossmember and radiator support panel have been replaced but the right front chassis rail and the inner guards (wheelhousings) were repaired. I presume the outer guards(fenders) were replaced as well. Here are some pictures showing some of the "repairs".[V]





When we got the car, the chassis number was missing from the right front chassis rail and someone had stamped it into the top part of the wheelhouse. The reason it was missing was because the distorted chassis rail had been bogged up.





Here is the rail a bit further forward. The outer half of the rail is a couple of centimeters lower than the inner half. This was the reason for the bog, to make them look equal. The bog was a centimeter or more thick, covering the chassis number. The support brackets for the aircleaner need a rebuild as well as the rail which will be pulled back up to the correct position.





Here's the "repaired" wheelhouse outside the chassis rail. The front cage nuts and cage nut housings for attaching the outer guard (fender) are missing or crushed flat. I'm not sure how that will be done. I'd be inclined my self to replace the front part of this wheelhouse with a part from a donor but I haven't spoken with Justin's panel beater.





The front of the left wheelhouse is not as bad as the right, but the same problem applies to the cage nuts and their cages. The front two are missing, and a couple more further back crushed but repairable. The solution to the missing cage nuts on this side can be seen if the image is sharp enough. The fender has been rivetted to the wheelhouse. The rivet heads remain.
Art

Here's one more picture to finish off for the minute. On the right is the rear engine mount support bracket that was on the car. It's off a 3.5 or late 109 016. On the left is the one off #771 which will be the donor. The hand brake cable ring bracket is missing off the #771 bracket, but we'll fix that.




Art

That's some major surgery that I would like to be in on. Body and chassis work has become a major interest to me and it has just started recently. I guess I was watching one of those car shows on TV. I have done just a little body work on my 6.3, primarily when I had the carpet out of the car and the dash out. I was able to see some rust on the passenger side of the transmission tunnel. I do believe I fixed it with that new stuff that you paint over rust- POR-15 type. However, you all have gone to the limit and that's what I would like to participate in.

It would be great if there were such a clinic available for members who could get their hands dirty on a doner chassis.

Michael Edwin Freed

Some panel beaters musn't have a conscience ...to use bog to cover a repair is bad news. Then again the cut down fan was a fair indication of the 'workman ship' used on that poor car over the decades.
I would suggest measuring the front axle too,because it is probably bent.
I was thinking yesterday that most of the 6.3's I have seen have been real victims of bad driving and owner neglect,especially when compared with W108's. I have two here now and both have really good body work. in fact one is a real nice car,shame about the owners desire to install a chev.

...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

I guess Justin has a Wurth applicator gun? or is that different stuff to the PVC that wurth also use ?


...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

Ron's comment just above: That's a safe bet Ron on loads of them but I have found a few that were not abused. It seems to be real similar to what I witnessed in 1960 muscle cars. The second or third buyers were just terrible idiots. I guess the describtion as an "idiot" might be too kind.
For example, I'll give a Chevy 409 story. First purchased by a just a high screwll grad but the guy could afford it. That guy ran it real hard. I was 12 or 13 but still recall the sounds. He Sold it for less than 1/2 about two years later. That guy made less cash and could barely afford it. He ran it harder until the rear diff blew and he sold it for about 500 $. That guy repaired the rear diff, but drove it reasonably. He was my best pal in school. In 1974, the price of uel spiked, my pal threw in the towell and sold it for around 500 $. It didn't look bad but it was a bucket of bolts. It rattled. At any speed over 70 MPH it seemed barely under controll. That buyer trashed it. It ended up as a parts car owned by a 409 fan. That fellow had at least five of them in 1985. What happened from there, I have no idea.
Moral of the story? The 6.3 was damn costly when new, similar to at least buying three new Caddys. If that 6.3 remained in that family it had a good chance to make it. If it was sold to a fan without the funds to maintain and repair it, it went downhill fast. If one was sold to an idiot, it became a parts car. Part of my economic theory and 6.3s.
Now, compare the above to 600s. Ever wonder why so many 600s are quite decent? It's the proof of my Economic Theory.
What the guys are doing with 6.3s in Oz is admirable. I can't even guess the time involved.

In addition to #5810, Justin also has #771 which I bought as a parts car years ago. He started with #1428 which I had also bought as a parts car. When #1428 turned out to be a dog, he took on #771 instead with the intention of turning it into a race car. It has been hiding in a panel shop for about 3 years, maybe more. Various bits and pieces have been done to it including the start of flaring of one rear guard. He retrieved it last week. All the work is unbelievably BAD[V][V][V]. Agricultural is the best adjective I can think of to describe it. Have a look at this lot of pictures. It will be on the back burner till #5810 is finished. Everything will have to be redone if the project is to continue[B)].
Art

Art,do remember wolf mentioning something about that guy ,and saying something like " why would you trust him with a Ferrari resto..." ? .It's bad alright but I know some guys who may be able to rectify it and finish it properly. The sill boxes are 'interesting.'[xx(][xx(]

...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

Art,

Be sure that the rear cross member is in fact "incorrect"!!!!

Late 6.3's had different rear x-member and gear box mount than the earlier ones.

My Latish 6.3 (#5713), has a "square" box mount, not round, the same as the 116; complete with 116 part number.

C.T.

1971 300SEL 6.3
1969 280SE
1979 280E
1979 450SEL 6.9
1959 220SE Ponton

Craig,
That is interesting because that is exactly what was on the car. I checked with Tom Hanson as to whether late 6.3's had the later mount and he didn't think so. Maybe Ron can have a look under Rob Fulton's current car if he still has it. I seem to recall it has a pretty late chassis number.
Art

Art,

do the chassis number thingie with MB to secure the correct mount number. If the rear mount starts with 116, then the x-member on the right is the correct one! Marvelous things, these computers. [;)]

C.T.

P.S. Art, please send me your home number (I've deleted it.....ooops)via email. I need to chat!

1971 300SEL 6.3
1969 280SE
1979 280E
1979 450SEL 6.9
1959 220SE Ponton

Craig,

I've been through the Parts Manual (and I'm sure Tom would have gone through the M-B computer) and it does not record this change. But it also does not record a 6.3 ever having a pistol grip gear shift lever either.[V] I'll check with tom again just to be sure. My number is 07 33435593. Ring in the evening.
Art

Art (and others),

Check out this link. It gives the chassis number that the gear box mounts and cross memeber were changed.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mercedes-Getriebelager-W108-W109-W111-W116-Neu_W0QQitemZ370022959601QQihZ024QQcategoryZ42480QQcmdZViewItem

Marvelous things these computers!! [:D]

C.T.

1971 300SEL 6.3
1969 280SE
1979 280E
1979 450SEL 6.9
1959 220SE Ponton

Art,

a couple of pics to confirm that the cross member with the 116 gear box mount is the correct one for your son-in-law's baby!!!!!!

Chasis #5713 Golden Nuggett.





Regards C.T.

1971 300SEL 6.3
1979 280E
1979 450SEL 6.9
1959 220SE Ponton

No argument from me[;)]. You will have had my e.mail. I have already done a P&A for the W116 mount with Tom Hanson a week ago. Justin has not made up his mind yet to go with it. Looks like more clearance for the exhaust with this design than the original as well - I guess a V8 twin exhaust factor in that design. Looks like a rigid cross pipe rather than a flexible one on #5713 but I suspect that that is not original. Nice to see that my exhausts are not the only ones with scrape marks[:I].
Art

Art, very nice! I'm really enjoying this journey with you and Justin.

Francis E. Abate

#5810 has been on hold while Justin has rebuilt one of his Snapon M-B trucks from the bottom up. Work on the car has restarted. Here are some more pics.
Art

More pics. One of Justin replacing the warped rotors on the rebuilt truck and the rest of #5810 where the spot welding of the new panels is well advanced and other repairs are proceeding. Note particularly the progress with the right front chassis rail. There is still more to do to that rail, but it is a hell of a lot better than it was. The new beaver, left rear quarter, boot floor, left bumper support bracket and left wheel well are pretty well done. the crumpling of the right rear quarter is significantly improved. Door gaps with my donor doors are good. Rockers are good, note the end plates that I mentioned on another thread. Lots of detail for anyone who is interested.
Art

Someone has a sense of humor.




1971 Mercedes Benz 250CE (RHD in the UK)
1971 Mercedes Benz 300SEL 6.3
1973 Mercedes Benz 280SEL 4.5
1973 Mercedes Benz 350SE 4 speed
1976 Mercedes Benz 450SEL 6.9
1979 Mercedes Benz 450SEL 6.9
1979 Mercedes Benz 450SLC 5.0
1980 Mercedes Benz 500SLC
1997 Mercedes Benz E420
2006 Adidas Samba

That's the panel beater[;)]. You can't read it in the picture but he put HOLDEN on the left (Australian GM) and TORANA (popular Holden model from 30 years ago) on the right as well as the 350 badge[:)].
Art

Aren't they going to repair the kink in ther firewall?


...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

It's on the agenda, just another job to do[;)].
Art

Another thing I noticed,the hole for the steering column is smaller than a W108's and a different shape. Possibly because of the larger tunnel?

...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

Ron,
I made a comment about that on page 1. I'd be interested in Craig Tucker's input. The size of the hole has nothing to do with the size of the tunnel unless the factory got feed back about cracking of the firewall in the earlier cars, something I have personally never heard of. If you have a look at the pics I have posted here and put in the Lode Star over the years of #1702 and #765, the steering column hole in the firewall on those 6.3's is the same as the W108 and other W109's. The alloy steering column base plate was changed in the 6.3 at chassis 2020, along with a lot of other things.

I thought it might have been the same as the 3.5 W109 056, like the rear engine mount and support, but the part number for the 3.5 is a W108 part number and that for the 6.3 is a W109 part number. Craig has commented in the past on this message board that his steering column is offset to the right, something I have never noticed in my earlier cars. The later base plate is exclusive to the RHD 6.3 according to the Parts Manual and that may well explain Craig's previous comments.
Art









These aren't the best pictures, but the only ones I have of the steering column base plate in #1702 in the computer in .jpg format to post here. I have lent the photo albums to Justin and Terry for #5810, so I can't scan any better ones.

Wow Art, it makes me wonder if I should save my parts car rather than dump the body when I finish stripping it. Of course, all it takes is time.....skill.....and maybe a little money[;)]

I'm sorry if you've already mentioned this but how does Justin come by all this information and skill[?], other than from you of course!

Francis E. Abate

Francis,

Justin is a mechanic by trade. As a Snapon franchisee, he has all the tools you could ever dream of. The current panel beater Terry is employed full time by Justin at the moment. He's a good tradesman as well as having a sense of humour[:D]. Justin owns a shed with a lift and also has a lot of "mates" in all sorts of important trades, eg auto electrician, chrome, upholstery etc[^]. It makes a hell of a difference.

Art

Re the smaller appearing column hole.

Well ,one thing i can see,that column is miles different to a W108 column,at least the one I have spent all day looking at. [:D].i'm too buggered to go and check the one in my car but on the 108's column there is a sliding joint shaft next to a support tube which on column shift cars doubles as the gearshift tube.


...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

Art - so it's good to have a mechanic in the family, eh? Just in case you need any help[;)]

Francis E. Abate

Here is an update. Wheel arches stoneguarded, engine bay primed and the rest ready for primer. Hopefully painted in 2 weeks.

It's in primer. Full paint in 2 weeks.

Nice one! Can't wait to see it painted. It is lovely when you get to this stage of a project, as you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hope to see some more pictures of it soon!

Mercedes W116 450 SEL 6.9, W109 300 SEL 6.3, W126 420 SEL, Fiat 131 Mirafiori (X4), Fiat Argenta and a Mk1 Ford Escort!