6.3

Wanted to know if I can use denatured alcohol to flush the oil cooler? After the core rebuild, I see sign water in the cooler. Please advise

Art - yes I understand we are guests at Irvine so don't worry about that - I realize that my query on this subject will likely make no differnce to D-C without a larger contingent behind me. It's an opportunity for ALL of us to TRY and make a differnce, but I won't fight city hall and our fellow members just to end up no where. You can obviously tell this is frustrating to me, but not to the point of being real upset. Would I like to try and make a difference, hell yes; do I realize my limitations, yes; do I still enjoy my Mercedes and would I like more, hell yes! For now, I will continue to learn and do as much as I can to restore my own cars and bypass what I may not like - I still think about getting a 600 to restore! Surprised? You have dream and start somewhere.

On that hose - I bought a hydraulic hose from a reputable company in that biz for about $7 for 3 ft and reused my fittings - it is working..don't jinx me now friend!

We will discuss discuss this more over some beers, you bet. And Dan will be sitting there as the sober one, but not the somber one eh Dan!

Dan - I have more to discuss with you, respectfully, I believe you are dead wrong on driving old american iron cross country. Is it a MB, no, and my american car friends acknowledge that - the way I look at it we are in this for fun and depending on your tastes, there are many cars to have fun with - that's where I am coming from and my dissatifaction with some of the high prices tends to cut into my fun. After all, if I couldn't drive the car because I couldn't afford to fix a certain problem, that would be horrible and NO fun.

Your point about Les Blumer and restore costs - I agree - that's exactly what's in my head as I slowly restore my car, that once all is replaced/refreshed it will go for a long time. I'm fortunate as many of are to be able to afford this hobby and if I can someday afford a "real" restoration, that would be very cool.

I've probably said enough or too much - I'm saving the rest for Irvine - WHEN I get there!



Francis E. Abate
1970 6.3 No.3791
1968 6.3 No.0250 (Parts)
1998 ML320

Francis,
They may be able to answer some or all of your questions in Irvine. It certainly is a good oportunity to ask as long as we all remember that we are their guests. I feel strongly that we should not bite the hand that feeds us. There are lots of things you can buy more cheaply elsewhere, even simple things like screws and nuts and bolts, but I have seen plenty of examples of cars ruined by people using the wrong screws, nuts and bolts (too long, too thick, wrong strength, wrong material etc). At least you can get the correct screw at 5 times what you would pay for a screw at Walmart. I think that is the problem with your oil hose. My memory is that you had trouble getting the correct ends and length to replace it yourself and even posted something about the hose not having to be high pressure. Without input from this group of enthusiasts, you may well have ended up with a very expensive repair job, a hell of a lot more than the $200 you could have spent to get the correct hose in the first place. How many hours did you spend on that hose and what do you regard your hours as worth? I reckon we can enjoy quite a few beers talking about this in Irvine. I'm looking forward to it.
Regards,
Art

Francis, I know the cause of confusion over Les's comments about "cheap to maintain". Better said, cheap is very relative. Also, compared to what other auto or even car?, is relative.
Meaning?? Once restored, they are damn cheap / inexpensive to opperate. I'm serious, they are, relative to what they drive like and the huge bone shattering power one can give you. They are tough as nails. BUT, nails can bend if hammered by an inexperiencd carpenter. Which means, in a rookies hands, a 6.3 is a bank account drain. If a guy takes every trick on this board to memory, every system has either a trick, such as Ron's vineger, or my gas tank restoration system and subsquent tricks to keep one clean, you can be set for life in a restored 6.3.
On your example of the 200 $ oil line. That price is a true joke, but at laest the part is available. But we make anything we can.
A 6.3, is over engeneered in 99 % of it's systems. It's weak link might be said to be the rear diff. This point can be argued by throwing in my Rookie Theory, meaning a guy that doesn't understand the 60 % to 40 % power to the rear wheels, you take a sharp left turn at full power with a well tuned engine and that rear half shaft can blow. A normal 6.3, with a straight run is tough If it jumps or chirps, chirps, and chirps in a hop, you can cause severe damage. Just learn what caused it and avoid it, such as punching it at a speed bump.
Change the fluids and grease it, keep the fuel both fresh and clean, make very sure your rubbers are within a six year life span and you can drive one across the entire USA.
Possibly, this is what the restoration pro, Les, meant. The problem is getting it there. Restorations are not cheap even if a guy does all of it at hme. You mentioned a ratio of three American classics to one 6.3. It might even be four to one, but I would never trust a 1960s American rig farther than 30 miles from home. 6.3s, give me no reason for fear.

Art - no problem butting in! I understand your points and maybe I just need to understand the D-C manufacturing and support process better. A couiple of things here:

On parts prices: if I look at the simple example of the oil feed line for the air compressor at almost $200 from D-C I would think that to any of us that is outrageous. The hose is cheap, that I know. Are their fittings that special? I know typical fittings found here are not more than a few bucks, let's say $25 to go high, for each - with reasonable markup we should still be under $100 for the hose assy - I'd be curiuos how they could justify that one. The others, I can't profess to know enough about materials and manufacturing - however, one factor is probably their keeping small inventory on the shelf and that we are paying the price for that - maybe that's normal.

On the radiator - I am not replacing the cooler tanks for the trans and oil, and they may or may not clean them but suggested they could. They will just recore the radiator part of the unit.

The young entrepreneur - my point would be not that one could make a quick buck, but there's an obvious market for these cars albeit very much a niche. Could you make money at it over time and build up to something - I don't know - but I do know myself and many other of our DIY club members would buy from such a source. Also, don't many of these parts apply to other chassis like the 108 or Finnies? If so, the numbers are more than you cited. The brackets may be a bad example as they are not a must have - I believe that's one reason theere was no interest.

I was talking to Les Blumer (6.3 restorer & mechanic who'd been cited here a few times) of NM the other day and plan to call him again - an intersting thin he said that I want to talkfurther about with him. "These cars are the cheapest to maintain and operate...", he said soemthing to that affect - at this point I have no idea how that is so but will report back to you in a new post if what he tells me makes any sense.

Francis E. Abate
1970 6.3 No.3791
1968 6.3 No.0250 (Parts)
1998 ML320

Art,Boiler water treatment should be available from Blackwoods.Or you could try asking the guys at the Ipswich Rail museum....[;)]

...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

Ron,
I'll bet you can't buy a copper top tank for a 6.3 from NATRAD for $80. I'll bet you can't buy a bottom tank either. The copper is worth more than that. Wouldn't argue on the plastic tank or alloy core price at the time you quote but would expect the copper cores to cost more than the alloy ones. I also suspect that since that time, prices have doubled. I am guessing you cracked the top tank hose fitting in the mid 1990's. You are right about the plastic tanks, the hose fittings all crack off. I've replaced 2 or 3 top tanks for that problem, never the whole radiator, on my W126's. Haven't had to recore any of them.

Dan,
You are talking about a sacrificial anode, a lump of zinc that gets eaten away instead of the alloy or copper. Every yacht has one for the same reason. They are a good idea. You are spot on regarding regular replacement of the coolant. Brisbane has very hard water, (high calcium levels) and back in the 1960's when alloy head motors were becoming popular, it was very common to see heads totally eaten away from the water jackets out. We used distilled or rain water plus corrent percentage M-B coolant to combat that. I don't know what the stuff is that steam engine guys use to protect their boilers. They put in some stuff to reduce foaming, a serious problem in steam engines, as well as stuff to reduce scale build up. The latter has relevance for us. Coolant should be replaced annually as you say.
Art

Sorry Francis, once again I read your post and missed the point that the 300 $ was for only a recore. To add on what your radiator guys told you and every good shop in our area knows their "stuff", so to speak. Cores can and will corrode if A JERK EVER OWNED the Benz. Jerk? A guy that gets into his great loooking Benz on a daily basis, but jerks also can own Garage Queens; and lets the fluid stay there for years.
As radiator fluid ages, it turns to an acid that first eats any aluminum in the block and then the copper cores in the radiator. We now try to give any acid something to eat first. I recall it is a Zink plug, but it escapes me. I speak with personal experience about this. I am a past jerk. I owned, for about twenty years, a perfectly restored 450 SLC, my first Benz. It happened to me out of pure ignorance. Yes, I was a jerk. Driving to Portland one early sunny morning, my tail pipe started blowing steam. I had it towed by flat bed tow truck into MBI and had the exteeme joy in rebuilding that 450's engine. Yes indeed. Stupid as dirt. This was in about 1989 or 1990, prior to reading a single word about routine maintenance. Since that day, I have been a avid believer in fluid changes. On the Bullet for example, it gets yearly fluid changes.
Want more LOL stories? How about that 450, with maybe 1000 miles put on it in 10 years. I was looking at the oil dip stick. Looked clean to me, hey, no problem, right? Well, not exactly. Water is contantly forming in the motor oil through basic condensation. That water plays hell with the bottom end on the engine. Ever notice whit bubbles on a dip stick? Dittos for the fuel tank but tons more oppotunity for water. Alcohol solves that problem withh at least 180 proof, but 200 proof is best, thats 100% stuff.
All of those items are part of my "Garages Kill" theory. Other 6.3 killers are just not driving it often. Window switches go to hell, (they get a white looking powder), if not used at regular intervals. Window motors loose their ability to "work" without constant use. Wheel bearings get rusty. Brakes freeze up with rust. The whole thing turns to junk in the Garage if parked forever. Looks great at a concourse event, but it's junk. If YOU own a garage quess, you better have a car trailer handy. I have found that the 6.3 is a touchy auto. No other model I have owned goes to pot like they / 6.3s do. Nothing like an American 1940s, 1950s, or 1960s collector "cars". 6.3s are complcated beasts. They need to run.
Every time I run ours, we use all the "stuff". Run all the windows, sunroof, air ride settings high and low. Park brake, hood release, heater, and even run the air-con in the winter. Then, we run it through the gears. Run them hard. Push them. Never, do we treat them like a baby. They seem to like it. Run them hard and put them up wet, stress that, run them hard part. Just watch your left turns at full power.
Dan Smith, Oregon

I do not know how it is done in the US,but here in Australia,NATRAD is the main aftermarket supplier of radiator Cores,I had to replace a W126 core a few years ago and when I went to see an friend in the industry who showed me the NATRAD catalogue,which is normally a "trade only" document.In it I discovered that plastic (or copper) tanks could bought for $80 top and bottom and a core was $150 ,as opposed to a Mercedes dealer price of $1600.
As a matter of interest it has become the norm to replace those W126 top tanks every 100,000 miles(or 160,000kms) because they become brittle and can break off the hose stem.I did it at a place Olympic dam...in the South Australian outback,not a clever place to run out of water.
http://www.natrad.com.au/about_natrad.html

...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)

Francis,
I'm going to butt in on this. $300 for the recore is fine as Dan said. Unless your top and/or bottom tanks are shot,there is no point in replacing them. It is highly unlikely that the radiator shop will replace the top and bottom tanks with something that looks even vaguely like a Mercedes tank. If you want them to reproduce an identical item, I will bet you that the price will start at twice the $1500 that M-B have quoted you for a new radiator. Recores are bread and butter for radiator shops, even in the new world of alloy cores and plastic tanks. Replacing top and bottom copper tanks means starting to talk proper money. The only reason the bottom tank would be unrepairable would be if it had taken a real bashing. The automatic transmission cooler would have to be reincorporated into the new tank. I can't think of a reason to replace the top tank except an MVA destroying it.

When I referred to availability of parts for 1960's cars, I was not only making the point that M-B are one of the few auto manufacturers still making parts available, but also that the number of parts available are for very small original production runs. While the aftermarket might see a profit in reproducing parts for a popular older model of which 100000 were made, any young entrepeneur thinking he will make a fortune selling parts for cars of which only 6000 were originally made is very likely to go broke. I thought you realized that when you offered a limited run of emergency buffers and got two orders. I've had parts made that look pretty straight forward, for example, the 600 window control toggles in steel, and, even done at no profit by a friend, they were VERY expensive considering what they look like. A square cut diff crown wheel and pinion for the 1913 car to replace the worn out crown wheel I had cost several thousand dollars, ditto a brake lever.
Art

Dan - on the radiator I am not sure what a new one would cost to fab as I asked only about a recore for the radiator; the new condenser is 300 so I suspect a radiator being recored for 300 might be a bit more for new - suppose I should ask. Why not go new, I agree, but price is an issue with me and everything else I want to do.

I understand about the vinegar clean out etc,but I am relying on the tech to tell me what's best and at this point to make the meet I really don't have much time to find out I made the wrong deceision by trying to clean it myself and then send out for a recore. With the car in the shop for at least another week to take care of this and the AC system, I just don't have time to do all myself.

Francis E. Abate
1970 6.3 No.3791
1968 6.3 No.0250 (Parts)
1998 ML320

300 $ is a very decent price. That price compares to a recore of an original radiator, here in my area. Why not go all new, for only 300 $, then it's perfect. If however, a M100 was owned by a fan that understood proper maintenance, you wouldn't even need a recore. If a fan changes the fluid every two years, basically, besides some real hard water areas, nothing can go wrong. In hard water areas, Ron's vineger in the radiator trick will clean out, by dissolving them, all calcium deposits. BUT, even in hard water areas, there is an additive that steam engine fans use. It keeps calcium suspended in the water.
Francis, have another made at the same time, I'll take both the radiator and the condenser. The tranny cooler? I assume it is hard to trash one by lack of care with the tranny fluid moving.

Art - it's a good poin that MB is suporting our hobby. However, justified or not it's a lot of money for some of these components. Your point about other manufacturers not providing classic parts is well taken, however, with all the 3rd party suppliers out there - and I am referring ot the American makes - you can pick up repro parts for dime on the dollar compared to MB. The point is, if you like those cars which I happen to, you likely could restore 3+ for every 6.3.

I guess the answer is that someone go into business reproducing benz parts - seems to be wide open for a young entrepreneur!

I did speak to a place here called Denver Radiator - they have several locations throughout the west under the name www.serckservices.com, and they will build you a new radiator or condenser using the old one for a template. These guys will recore my old radiator, and I may have them create a new condenser for me - approx cost for each of these jobs is $300.

Francis E. Abate
1970 6.3 No.3791
1968 6.3 No.0250 (Parts)
1998 ML320

Francis,
$1500 for a new radiator for a 35 year old car that they only made 5500 of in the first place is not price gouging (the RHD radiator is different). Try buying a new radiator from any other car manufacturer for one of their 1960's models, even if they made a million of them, and see how you get on.

Brings back memories of when I was restoring the 1913 Benz. I had a radiator but it had a honeycomb core and every photo I had of a veteran Benz showed them to have a vertical tube radiator like a modern car. I enquired about the correct core with Gert Straub at the Old Timers Center, now the Classic Center. Gert had been extremely helpful in supplying a full parts manual. He did a "brass rubbing" of the core of the same model car that they had at the Museum (it had come from Sydney) and sent it to me. When I asked if he knew of anyone who could reproduce the core, he said that they could. Only hitch was that the price was 3500 Deuschmark. At the same time, I know of no other car company that is prepared to offer replacement parts for one of their 1913 models!
Art

Francis,

I agree with Chris. If you are unable to locate a shop in your are that can recore the radiator, let us know, because there are many shops around the country who can do this. It is not terribly expensive.

Stu

My two cents would be to have it recored. This was discussed recently in the 600 section and there where a lot of good comments there.

Take a look at the core on the fan side. Look straight down the line of the tubes, particularly at the outside edges. Do all the tubes still look straight up and down, or are they starting to bow out to the sides a bit? If you see bowing, then it is due for a recore. If the tubes are still straight, it isn't losing water, and it isn't restricting water flow, then a good flushing will probably take care of it.

Chris Johnson

I know we've discussed this at times before - another issue being noted by the tech working on my car this week is that the radiator is full of debris and the inside looks dirty to him. He is going to run the car to hot and check for hot spots - his theory is that the readioator is not performing well and should be replaced. At $1500 for a new MB radiator (MORE MB price gauging!) is this necessary? Would a recore be as good?

We are having trouble finding a radioator shop in Denver - I'm told this may be becuase they are not as needed because radiators since the '80's are plastic - what do you think?

Francis E. Abate
1970 6.3 No.3791
1968 6.3 No.0250 (Parts)
1998 ML320